The shot (stone) push or pull...?

[bjketchem]

Just my two cents for what it's worth...

I have always seen it as a pull. Yes, there is a push on the ball (stone) at the end of the throw, but you are pulling it across the circle (box), which is where you are spending most of your time during the throw...moving across the area to deliver the implement.

regardless, of the style (spin, South Afr, glide, curly shuffle, hop, geezer slide, step through) your goal is to generate speed across the throwing area, then to transfer that energy into the implement. One of the most important (if not the most) in this effort is to create torque, by keeping your stone behind the hip when you land in the power position (think braemar position). when you do this, you have seperation... essentially pulling the stone behind you.

look at this video of Christian Cantwell and pause it at 2:14. It gives you a great look at the shot being behind his hip at the finish before he releases. Also, notice the how the shot "stays in place" when he lands in the power position and his lower body continues to work ahead of the shot to create even greater seperation. THEN BOOM! 74 ft.

at 2:56 is another example (Reese Hoffa)

at 3:33 is the GREATEST example of creating seperation (Adam Nelson)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FE4-tJyQBzo

In terms of a glider ( hop, curly shuffle) its pretty much the same exact thing.

at :24 and :48 notice the position of shot relative to hip...seperation...My personal favorite thrower ever... Ulf Timmerman (260lbs, went over 75')
at 2:09 same deal...Werner Gunthor (my second favorite)...you have probably seen his REDICULOUS training footage on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfeD7kDOMWo

final points...
1. separation is CRUCIAL to throw the shot (stone) far.
2. separation comes from "pulling it across the box," working you feet/lowerbody ahead.
3. the forces created across the box, outweigh the big punch at the end...if you have a big punch great, but if you're not using the box correctly to use it, it wont go as far as you want it to. Which is one reason why someone may braemar as far, or as close to the "full throw" marks.
4. may last thought, you DONT NEED A HUGE BENCH TO THROW 40 or 50 FT...the three most important factors are height, angle and speed of the release...technique is KING!

sorry for the rant...I just love talking shot (stone)

[TheHammer]

3. the forces created across the box, outweigh the big punch at the end...if you have a big punch great, but if you're not using the box correctly to use it, it wont go as far as you want it to. Which is one reason why someone may braemar as far, or as close to the "full throw" marks.

And there we have the root of my stone throwing problems... Thanks for the info... another little thing for me to work on

[miked]

as posted in Dave's training log . . . .

Think of it this way: does a catapult push or pull a stone?

You will throw farther if you use your body like a catapult. True with spin or glide. One technique just uses a fancier approach to get to the power (catapult) position.

If you were pushing the stone it would be ahead of you the whole time. If you look at all the techniques, the stone trails behind the body for almost the entire movement . . . . thus being pulled. You can't push something if you are moving ahead of it.

[Rich McClain]

Thanks for the explanation and videos. Good Stuff!

[miked]

Another little something to think about:

In the long history of the shotput, the world record has been held by a spinner only 3 times. Oldfield (unofficially) in '75 with 75', Barishnikov in '76 at 72'2.25", and Barnes currently (and for over 20 years) at 75'10.25". (correct me if I'm wrong here)

Best shotput by a glider . . . . Timmerman in '88 at 75'8".

The thought has occurred to me, "is 2.25 inches worth all that"? Especially on natural turf? For me . . . . No. I'm going back to the glide. I bet I throw farther more consistently this year, and hit a new PR. Any takers?

[TheHammer]

I'm not taking that bet... but i agree consistency is key. That is why i keep my approach as simple as possible.

[FrankH]

OK! I think I understand now that someone with some credibility 'splained it!

I think gliding is the way to go for HG athletes without T&F backgrounds, or for those (like me) who learned to glide before the spin was invented. It seems easier for most people to learn and to be consistent with. That's important when you have multiple events to master. As Dickens pointed out, the record with the spin is barely any better-- not like spinning with the WOB, where weak people can add 20-25% to their height doing that unnatural, illegal, non-traditional, unholy candy-a$$ crrrrrrrrap!

[miked]

So, Frank, does that mean you have been practicing the spinning WOB this offseason??

[FrankH]

Haha, um, no.

[FrankH]

But I AM weak.

[Jeff Storey]

Think of it this way: does a catapult push or pull a stone?

sigh...

BJ, great post!! If I read it over and over again, will I be able to do it right?

[miked]

sigh??

there may be a point of contention based on the relative location of force transfer to the stone, but in terms of force generation and mechanical transfer . . . . the catapult is pulling.

I know it was a whole different era when I studied physics, but I don't think these things have changed. Or, have you been sleeping under trees Jeff?

[FrankH]

Physics smack talk on a highland games site? What is the world coming to? (I'm putting a beer on Jeff "Isaac Newton" Story-doodle.)

[miked]

Et tu, Frank??

Don't forget that up until a day or so ago you thought the shot/stone was a push, too.

[FrankH]

Caesar--

I think the catapult analogy depends on the kind of catapult you're imagining. If it's one of those that look like a spoon that you drop a rock in, it looks to me like it's pushing the rock:

http://www.healthstones.com/knights_and_dragons_store/schleich_world_of_knights/schleich_castle/schleich_catapult/schleich_catapult.jpg

If it's the trebuchet kind, where the lever goes ahead of the rock, I agree, it seems more like a pull:

http://www.carthage.edu/dept/physics/Trebuchets/trebuchet.jpg

I feel like I'm pushing the rock like in the first photo, but if the experts say it's a pull, I reckon it's technically a pull. That feels like a push.

[miked]

So, I asked Wayne Hill his thoughts on the mechanics of catapults. Wayne is the HG'er that is literally a rocket scientist with a degree from MIT. Anyway, basically he thinks it depends on the type of catapult and essentially agrees with the examples Frank provided.

In his response he made an interesting comment, that in the stone the hand always seems to be pushing. I think this may be useful for us in understanding what is being described by saying that you pull the stone. B/c of the way the stone is carried, tucked at the neck with the hand and arm cocked, at the point of contact a push is taking place. But, relative to the body and its movement in the approach, the stone is being pulled. And, the key point here for throwing far is that the body generates the big speed and force.

Ultimately, use your body to generate speed and force to pull the stone into the power position and then snap a really fast push at the end.

Which is what BJ said.

[FrankH]

You can't argue with Wayne the Brain. There are definitely pulling components -- the glide with the stone tucked is pulling it; the hip turn while the stone is tucked pulls it, and the opposite arm pulls as the stone is delivered. The punch is all push, and I thought that the idea that your hand is constantly pushing the stone (against your neck before the punch) was a great observation. Also of course you push off as you begin your glide, push off your drive leg and push with your hips.

Which is what BJ said.

[Jeff Storey]

sigh??
there may be a point of contention based on the relative location of force transfer to the stone, but in terms of force generation and mechanical transfer . . . . the catapult is pulling.
I know it was a whole different era when I studied physics, but I don't think these things have changed. Or, have you been sleeping under trees Jeff?

SIGH...
I was just giving you a hard time...large objects like people and rocks (practically speaking) can't pull on one another. Unless there's magnetism involved. Or gravity. But those things would have to be metal...or really really really really really large. And no, these things have never changed, unless you learned physics pre-Big Bang. You're just thinking too much like a practical person.

But yeah, Wayne has a good point...there are many kinds of catapults. Trebuchets, which were popular much later than onagers, ballistas, and other torsion-powered designs, definitely do pull. So my new stone mantra is: Be the trebuchet, be the trebuchet, be the trebuchet.

Little-known fact about the Doodle: I've built at least one of each of the three main ancient catapult types. The best was an onager. It was huge, really powerful, regularly broke parts, absorbed huge amounts of time, and was a helluva dangerous beast. It could be truck bed-mounted for ease of....destroying or toilet papering many targets quickly. I wish I had pictures of it.

[bjketchem]

This has become more like, "Monty Python's Flying Circus Analyze the Stone Put"

[miked]

haha

we will all put the stone farther this year because of it.

[chirolifter]

Good stuff guys... Thanks BJ- makes a lot of sense....

[bjketchem]

You got it Gene. Just love talking shot. I was thinking of putting together a little video of some drills/progression of shot one of these days if anyone is interested, i'll get Mike over here to run the camera.

[chirolifter]

Hell yea, that would be awesome! Im re-habing right now. I tore my Oblique pretty bad... I'll be out from throwing for a few weeks..--URGH... Oh shit im not 25 any more- when did that happen???

[Rich McClain]

That had to be some serious stuff to tear an oblique. How did you manage that?

[miked]

Torn oblique??? ouch. Man, how'd you do that? Heavy Hammer winds?

[chirolifter]

Well it was LH. I was actually stopping it after the second wind and dumped it and felt a twinge, that was thurs 2/18 then Sat. after throwing the weights and not feeling any pain, I took some winds with the light and felt a little, so I let one go and felt a clunck, clunck and severe pain!!! I dont think its torn, but its pulled pretty good!!! So im in the gym doing what i can. I wont be able throw for a while... Soft tissue is about 6-12 weeks... I'll be lucky if im ready for So MD...
I was throwing LH 112 in practice... The most i ever threw in practice was 105- in meets it was 110. Im a meet thrower, so that 112 will translate to about 118-120....
Well, the big picture for me is Aug- Sept, Worlds, Belgium and NH...
No problem-- "Ill be BACK"
I Killed it...

[bjketchem]

Sorry to hear about the bang up...but, like all injuries they are just speed bumps. No doubt you'll be at it in no time!
Heck, now is a good time to watch some stone vid's
Heal up!

[miked]

Gene, is it your right or left oblique? You throw the hammer left handed, right?

[chirolifter]

yea, left handed. Its my left side, the side I pull from... Sucks...
Hit the gym pretty good today- did what I could. Im one for NOT breaking routine, so I go, do what I can and focus on healing up...
Thanks

[miked]

Gotta work on the flexibility so you can be long to your right and over the top without overstressing the abs/obliques/torso related muscles.