Hang Cleans/Snatches

[miked]

Question for all you fellas on Hang Cleans and Snatches:

how far down do you begin the pull? Above the knees? Below the knees?

Is there a recommended point to reverse the weight?

[Jeff Storey]

funny you should mention this.
Just below the knees for me. I can't get triple extension if not.
Yes, I was watching myself in the mirror in the gym this morning...
workout got cut short, I'm going back to hit some form work.

[scotbybirth]

Although I am not very good at these, I've tried both above and below the knee, and have had some good results from just below the knee. Hope this helps. -CK

[Beau Fay]

McDickens, I've always done these above the knee-- basically dropping down into the mid-thigh position where an olympic lifter would start the "second pull" and then driving the hips into the bar to reach full extension. The nice thing about these lifts from the high hang position is that it is almost impossible to "miss" the pull by pulling too early, which is very common when doing the olympic lifts from the floor or even the low hang (below knee) position.

[Drew Kirchen]

Hey there McD...I agree with ol' Dr. Fay. I've always enjoyed them more from the "high" hang position. I feel like I'm better able to ensure I use good form and work on quick, short, and explosive pulls. Just my 2cents.

Drew

[bjketchem]

my two cents...I agree with Dr. Fay and Drew for the most part if one chooses to do cleans. I also think that it's important to use a variety of starting levels, to serve for a variety of purposes. Paricularly, the importance of variation.
I read a great article awile back by Jud Logan I thought you guys may be interested in it (pasted below).

Power Clean Program


By Jud Logan,
Throws Coach Ashland University
3 x Olympian
Former American Record Holder

I read with interest about the Power Clean by Charles Poliquin. He wrote a 22 week program for me that enabled me to add 40 lbs. to my power clean, which had been stuck @ 404 for 8 years. I only did actual Power Cleans from the floor in the last three weeks. I will list the exercises I did, but the key was strengthening the weak links, including the brachialis and forearm extensors, the abdominal wall and low back areas.

In 1988, I did 352 x 8 reps, but still failed at anything over 404. His ideas are similar to Louie Simmons in many regards, but his programs are geared more for athletes in Olympic disciplines than the specific sport of Powerlifting. Both have much to offer and I have spent time with both and interchange protocols to continue to make progress @ age 38 and over 20 years of training.

I will try to explain the methodology behind my improvement to a 440 Power Clean. In 1992 I visited Poliquin in Montreal and was tested for muscular imbalances. The results were humbling, although he concluded I was stronger in some aspects than anyone he ever tested, certain areas left me weaker than 105 lb. figure skaters. He fixed my squat first, and although I boasted a 770 BS and 550 x 3 FS, I could not squat 250 lbs. 5 seconds down, 5 seconds up for 6 reps-- a test being accomplished by female speed skaters on the next platform. The second phase was my pulls. He started me with 6 sets of 6 Snatch from mid- thigh w/ a pause to reset technically each rep. After each set I did 6 reps of Pulls from the floor w/ 15 kilos more to the nipple. Each compound set had a 90 sec. rest period between the Mid and the Floor. Each set got easier due to the lighter feeling. This was a total of 12 work sets- w/ 5 lighter warm-up sets- yes I puked! 90 secs. came quickly to someone use to 4-5 min. recovery. This initial program lasted 3 weeks, done on M and Th, along with Squats- upper body was T and F, w/ W off. I finished w/ 105k x 3 Mid thigh Snatch and 120k pulls for 3 and also a 350 x 5 slow tempo squat.

The next 3 week block switched to Hang Clean and F. Squat. The protocol was 5 x 4 wk. 1, 4 x 4 wk. 2 and 5 x 2 in wk. 3. My best was 160 K for 2 in the hang clean done to upper patella. I also did Romanian Dead lifts during this cycle. The next 3 week cycle switched to progressive range PC. Depending on the reps, starting with 4 x 6, the first rep was done from high thigh, moving down 2 inches per rep until the last rep was mid shin, but never touching the floor. The first rep was the hardest and by rep 6 I was in a more favorable position for strength. The Squats went to BS and 8 x 3 @ 70% 3 secs. down/1 sec. up, with 60 seconds rest- yes I puked! I also did seated good mornings. I finished with a 147k x 4 Progressive range set, 2 reps above knee and 2 below- never letting the plates touch the floor- in the squat I finished @ 405 for 8 x 3 w/ 60 sec. rest. This program was Neural Drive and my throwing took a big jump, 75 meters in Jan. and 75 feet in the weight. The next 3 week cycle was Mid Grip Snatches and paused front squats in the hole posistion 6-4-6-4-6 (Wave loading) The mid grip snatches were 1+2. One from mid thigh and 2 from the floor. I finished w/ 110k from mid grip 1+1. I also did Standing good morning during the cycle.

The next 3 week program switched to the floor for the first time on the clean. Week 1 was 4x4, week 2 was 5x5 and week 3 was 3x4 and the second workout of that week was 5-3-2-1-1. The key was Jump Squats before PC, 3x20 w/ 50k, this was the precursor for speed and dynamics. The Squats were heavy 1/2 squats and killer hamstring workouts. I did 170k x4 and eventually 200k or 440 lbs on my descending set day. My throwing went to hell this cycle and 4 weeks before nationals, I could only throw the weight 74 feet, but the 9k hammer was at a lifetime best of 68 meters, strong but no neural drive yet.

The finishing cycle was Snatch Grip jumps 4x6 w/40k and speed snatches from blocks, high shin, 3-2-1-2-1. I only did ONE set of Front Squat, 80k x 5 per workout and recovery was amazing. The upper body workout featured pushpress and chins only and I went to New York for the nationals breaking the world record in the weight @ 801/4 and losing to lance Deal.

In hindsight changing workouts every three weeks was key for me and by concentrating more on tempo of squats and increasing my work capacity instead of just cleaning and squatting heavy- I was able to make the breakthrough that lead to over 80 meters at the Olympic trials and 4th in Barcelona. Don't try to copy my workout, but maybe learn from the variety in tempos, grips, rest periods and positions of pulls for breaking plateaus.

On the jump squats, the key is to have the elbows under the bar pointing straight down ( good power line). Next the athlete squats into what I call a high 1/2 squat position, and attempts to drive the feet through the floor in a violent change of direction--- try to reach maximum height each jump (I tell my athletes to feel sensation of reaching for the ceiling w/ their head, and to point the toes down on lift off). Keep the bar tight to the traps and upon landing repeat w/out pause. When done correctly it looks like weighted hopping in place. Remember this is more plyometrics and a stimuli for the nervous system to prepare the fast twitch muscle fibers to fire! Again, I used 110 lbs, I had my all-american (207) use 40 k or 88 lbs, on his way to a 150k (330) clean @ a BW of 210. Hope this gives you some guidelines.

Absolute strength for throwers:
I would take the increase in vertical over the extra weight in the clean. Lance will clean 110k or so is great maintenance for him and allows him to recover for throwing workouts. He threw over 80 in New Zealand off of these type of workouts. After nearly a four year layoff I cleaned 170k the first day back- physiologist call this muscle memory. Does this mean for someone throwing 60 meters, proportionally he should only clean 70k for 5x5 and expect to progress the same way Lance is? The balance is a double edged sword- most people advocating not lifting heavy- for the most part have been strong at one point in their career. Others like myself MAY be using strength training as a crutch, but I believe I am only trying to cover all the bases. Lift, throw, plyos, and work on technique. I am my own coach and have a strength coach that writes most of my work-outs (Poliquin). I fit the throwing schedule around my job (coach) and do my drills, film and make an honest effort to fix what technique I can. I enjoy weight training and I am still motivated by the gains I make at age 38- lifting and throwing. Taking a page out of Lance's book, I am currently only squatting 315 for 8 sets of 3 w/ one minute rest- I continually search for the right balance. I am unable to do any pulls w/a torn calf currently and maybe i will start to feel the ball better. I compete against only one person-myself, I am finding the journey to remain competitive over 75m to be an exhilarating and challenging- I may never see 80m again, but it won't stop me from trying!

[Beau Fay]

Always loved that article... or anything written by Jud.

[bjketchem]

+1 to that Beau, the guy is a legend and he makes studs...You ever read the article where he discusses cluster training? I'm going to give it a go for the first HG this season.

[miked]

Interesting article. Drives home the need to vary workouts so muscles and nerves don't get "habituated" to certain movements/lifts.

As for me, I like to either pull from right below the knee or from the floor, generally a light touch and go. The thing I like about coming from the floor is the need to be patient and wait until you get to the right position before you explode the triple extension. Very similar, in my mind, to throwing. Particularly the weights.
The thing I like about pulling from right below the knee is that I get a "rolling start" and don't feel like I am starting from a static position when I try to hit the triple extension.
With that said, I am not a great cleaner/snatcher. I hope to increase the pounds as I continue to work these lifts along with Jump Shrugs, front squats, Ult JSs and Timmerman Good mornings. These are all lifts I have only started doing in past year or two, and some as recently as a couple of weeks.

If I want to be a thrower, I need to lift like a thrower. Right?

[bjketchem]

that's a great point Mike, lift like a thrower. Lifting is to make one stronger and is only truly applicable if throwing technique is on point. BTW, thanks for reminding me of that Mike.

[jcollins]

I know I am a little late adding my two cents to this post, but I agree with Beau and Drew on the "just above the knee" location. As far as a regular pivot point for getting under the weight you can easily drop below it if you can pull to somewhere around your upper chest, but for heavier lifts you might need to pull to the lower pec and drop your knees and body to catch it.

And this reminds me that I need to do some more of them soon.

[Mike Wills]

Definitely above the knee...going lower doesn't mimic the positions we use as well. One of the biggest mistakes on the caber is trying to drop the hips too low. A quick 4" hip drive moves the caber much better than a slower 12" hip drive.

[miked]

Some interesting thoughts on this subject. I think I will try some of the "high hang" cleans. Not that Beau, Drew, John, or Mike Wills know what they are talking about. sheeesh

[Rich McClain]

(in Aussie accent of the late Steve Irwin) Be real quiet mate, we don't want to rial the beast(s) (Drew, John, Wills, Beau). She might just jump up and strike us!

(John Wayne) You're messin' with a Hornet's Nest!